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hello this is dr. eugenie Scott from the

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national center for science education

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welcome to the skeptic Zone welcome to

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the skeptic Zone the podcast from

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Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptics own podcast

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episode number 565 for the 18th of

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August 2019 which had Sanders here with

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you from the office the office of dr.

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eugenie Scott a longtime friend of the

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sceptic zone and visiting dr. eugenie

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Scott today and using her office to

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finish off the last bits of this week's

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skeptic zone coming up on this week's

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show coming up on this week's show we

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have an interview with Joe Thornley who

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is the author and the producer of a

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podcast called zealot zealot all about

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cults religious cults strange cults

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personality cults things like David

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Koresh or Jim Jones way back in the

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1980s with Jonestown her podcast and

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book revolve around study Oh

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cults why do people join cults what's

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the appeal who are these gurus they

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follow and what's their motivation find

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out with Joe Thornley at the top of the

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show and don't forget Joe Thornley is

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one of the guest speakers at this year's

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skeptic on in Melbourne following that

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it's Heidi Robertson the raw skeptic

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Heidi is going to be telling us about a

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press release policy statement by the

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therapeutics Goods Administration the

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TGA in Australia concerning so-called

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bioresonance machines now these have

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been around for a long time these are

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these quite frankly quack machines that

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you get hooked up to you somehow and

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supposedly they send waves or

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frequencies into your body in their

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bounce around and come back and tell the

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operator what's wrong with you the most

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obvious example of this sort of thing

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I've seen is called the Metatron which I

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see it mind-body wallet festivals and

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its bordering on absurd laughable it's

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more or less a laptop you put on a pair

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of headphones they run a program on the

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laptop a frequency is sent through the

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headphone

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this is real folks this is what they

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claim a frequency is sent through the

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headphones into your body

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apparently this goes through your body

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comes back to the computer and shows you

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what's wrong with your internal organs

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down to the level of DNA now of course

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to you and me it's an absurdity it's

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obviously quackery it's a phony it's a

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fake it can't possibly work maybe on

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Star Trek but I get the feeling too many

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people operating them or buying them

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from whoever and they think it's real

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some sort of special technology from

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Russia or something like that but I

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digress find out more about the

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government hopefully hopefully about

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time cracking down on these quack

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machines with highly roberts cracking

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down on these quack machines save that

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three times quickly quacking down

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quacking down cracking down cracking

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down on crack machines quacking cracking

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quick then the round off the show

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another item from the pages of the

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skeptic an innocent among the UFO

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believers by Barry Williams recounting

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the time he spoke at a science fair

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before a group of UFO believers well

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that's enough of me at the moment it's

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time for me to rush up the door down the

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hall and I think dr. Scott might have

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some hamburgers ready to go while I

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munch those I hope you enjoy the skeptic

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zone

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[Music]

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and joining me now on the line all the

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way all the way from Sydney Australia

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how exotic is that it's Joe Thornley

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hello Joe hello wonderful to catch up

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with you we have met many many many

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years ago at an event regarding

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homeopathy if I remember oh when we all

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committed suicide we all committed

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suicide which wasn't very successful I

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was awake shot hours afterwards that's

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right we consumed copious amounts of

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homeopathic sleeping pills never tastier

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like lollies yes yes actually I'd like

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lollies the homeopathic pills out very

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um you can eat one or two and they're a

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bit fun and you crunch them down but I

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wouldn't I wouldn't substitute them for

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jelly beans me know maybe they should

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adopt I like lollies as a marketing

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slogan what would it might work it might

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wear they might have to be for too long

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because the whole industry is being

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deluded oh we could do homeopathy jokes

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for a long time we're not here to talk

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about homeopathy we're here to talk

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about some other craziness and you I'm

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delighted to say you will be appearing

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and we can talk about this a bit later

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at the Australian skeptics National

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Convention skeptic on 2019 in Melbourne

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in December but the topic your I assume

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you're going to be talking on is a

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deeply fascinating one one that skeptics

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will find very interesting indeed it's

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all about cults various cults boring on

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religious cults or extreme belief cults

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from around the world what what got you

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interested in such an interesting topic

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I've always been interested in the dark

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topics so a bit of an interesting serial

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killers when I was a teenager I just I

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think this story is dark stories but

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also a bit of deception and some crime

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mixed in that's always fascinated me and

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I think cults in particular they're

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quite often the weirdest story

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so the quirkiest I've just I just became

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fixated and I've always been interested

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in religions as well what makes them

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tick what makes people believe and so

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the combination is irresistible to me

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yeah it's fascinating you should say

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that you were had an interest in things

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like serial killers because I notice I

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noticed and we can talk about your very

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interesting podcast which is called

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zealot and there's a book to which we'll

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get to

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but the the logo for zealot your logo

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what I looked at it I thought that looks

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oddly familiar then it dawned upon me

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it's very like the zodiac from the San

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Francisco Bay Area that's serial killer

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I realized that oh in my about a year

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after I designed it I realized that the

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O in my logo was reminiscent of that and

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I just thought oh what other squiggles

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of my brain have retained the you know

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horrible dark bits of information is

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that is that a fact because I would

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looked out and I thought oh you were

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very clever and you modeled it off the

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Zodiac killer not clever at all that's

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interesting oh how about that maybe some

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yes maybe in some dark recesses of your

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brain that little squiggle was just

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waiting to come out I mean there's a

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chance I am the Zodiac killer but I

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don't think the timelines match a very

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slim chance a very slim chance and that

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is a fascinating topic all in its own

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and I guess we can talk about the

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crossover in a way of true crime and the

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surge or the the amazing rise of true

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crime podcasts which I find deeply

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fascinating and I'm sure you do too

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absolutely and I think one of the things

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I've noticed about true crime the true

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crime fandom is that it's it's probably

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about 80% women and I don't I haven't

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really understood or been told any

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really convincing reasons for that but I

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think there's always been an interesting

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true crime and pulp crime and and that

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sort of thing but I think with the twin

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popularity of vodka

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and video on demand so non-mainstream

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broadcast advertiser run TV that's been

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available there's the opportunity to

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tell stories that are a little less

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mainstream and a little more

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investigative and a bit more shocking I

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think those platforms there's fewer

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regulations and there's a lot more

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opportunity for risk-taking and

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creativity so some really incredible

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stories are coming out of those two

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media

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well of course podcasting is a what an

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interesting thing it is in itself as I

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well know but tell me what what got you

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inspired then to think that you would do

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your own podcast well couldn't stop

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thinking about or reading about cults

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and I'd um I'd actually been on a mate's

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FBI radio show and he's got a show

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called versus Eddie Sharpe where two

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topics are discussed and then callers

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ring in and and vote for for the topic

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they think is the most interesting and I

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thought I've gotta beat him I've got to

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win this competition and so I picked

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cults and after that I just could not i

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won hooray but after that I could not

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stop reading and just devouring anything

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I could find about cults and I I kind of

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have to turn everything into a into a

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project and it gave me an excuse I think

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it would have felt just you know if I'm

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just spending all of my time reading

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about cults I'm a weirdo but if I can

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call it research for a podcast then I'm

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a podcaster so I think it was an

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opportunity to keep Kate researching

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them yeah one of the things that I found

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very interesting about your podcast when

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I was looking down the list of episodes

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was the Australian cults the Australian

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angle of course you're you cover many

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cults from around the world but I guess

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being in Australia the Australian angle

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is particularly interesting and we can

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chat briefly about one called

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little pebble

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in a nutshell how will you describe

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little pebble to the rest of the world

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well little and to put it nicely I'd say

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a deluded pedophile who's addicted to

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his own delusions of grandeur and that's

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putting it nicely right okay that's

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putting it nicely yes I mean he he's

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just waiting fingers crossed we hope

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that the Vatican will one day recognize

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him but also believes he was wrongfully

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imprisoned for having sex with underage

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girls so I think that is about the

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nicest way I can put it a nice bloke

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he's still in prison I know he know he's

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served his time and he's and now he's

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looking to have his conviction

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overturned but I think I'm pretty sure

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that ship has sailed

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I would think so now he he was operating

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in on the south coast of New South Wales

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if I'm remembering correctly yes yes and

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they even did some stuck some dynamite

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in a nearby hill because they wanted to

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make their own catacombs hmm that's a

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big extreme well I thought it'd impress

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the Vatican they've got some good grief

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so I mean it's it's a hallmark of the

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cult I guess that you have the Guru is

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that what you found in most cases yes

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and some are more impressive than others

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but generally speaking because the

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leader of the leader of a cult will have

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an incredibly healthy dose of narcissism

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they tend to work themselves into the

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origin story of the group so some will

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do it relatively gently like the Bhagwan

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Rajneesh

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Raja nishi's and others will do it

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00:13:11,260 --> 00:13:08,670
incredibly humbly like Marshall

274
00:13:12,620 --> 00:13:11,270
Applewhite of Heaven's Gate who really

275
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:12,630
shun

276
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:16,250
any kind of publicity or adoration and

277
00:13:23,569 --> 00:13:19,920
others like David Koresh who was born

278
00:13:25,610 --> 00:13:23,579
Vernon Howell will do it pretty much so

279
00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:25,620
he can feel like a big man increases his

280
00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:27,540
chances of getting a record deal and

281
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:31,649
again it's a recurring motif have sex

282
00:13:39,050 --> 00:13:35,970
with young girls what is it you find in

283
00:13:41,780 --> 00:13:39,060
in common amongst the believers the

284
00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:41,790
followers of a cult or a guru or is that

285
00:13:47,809 --> 00:13:44,880
putting it too simply is it something

286
00:13:50,180 --> 00:13:47,819
you really can't define I'd say that the

287
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:50,190
only thing that they really have in

288
00:13:56,509 --> 00:13:55,110
common is kind of bad timing there's a

289
00:14:01,280 --> 00:13:56,519
number of different reasons people will

290
00:14:02,990 --> 00:14:01,290
join cults and and I'd like what you

291
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,000
might think is a common thing

292
00:14:08,210 --> 00:14:05,279
gullibility isn't necessarily a part of

293
00:14:11,059 --> 00:14:08,220
it everyone has different points in the

294
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:11,069
graph of their life where they're going

295
00:14:15,050 --> 00:14:12,959
through a bit of a change there might be

296
00:14:16,999 --> 00:14:15,060
divorced you might be a teenager trying

297
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:17,009
to figure out what life's all about you

298
00:14:21,259 --> 00:14:19,110
might be you know you have that special

299
00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:21,269
breed of person a first-year psychology

300
00:14:26,809 --> 00:14:24,750
student that kind of thing where you

301
00:14:30,249 --> 00:14:26,819
just did a point in your life where

302
00:14:33,259 --> 00:14:30,259
you're looking for either meaning or

303
00:14:36,110 --> 00:14:33,269
something else or to wipe the slate

304
00:14:37,550 --> 00:14:36,120
clean or you might just be dissatisfied

305
00:14:39,019 --> 00:14:37,560
with your current religion and you're

306
00:14:42,309 --> 00:14:39,029
just ready for a new one

307
00:14:46,999 --> 00:14:42,319
so it's not necessarily gullibility

308
00:14:49,939 --> 00:14:47,009
naivety stupidity or even necessarily

309
00:14:53,230 --> 00:14:49,949
being easily malleable it's just looking

310
00:14:55,999 --> 00:14:53,240
for someone or something to show them

311
00:14:59,600 --> 00:14:56,009
what the next step is or they might want

312
00:15:02,660 --> 00:14:59,610
to change the world or save it I reckon

313
00:15:04,490 --> 00:15:02,670
I do think we might be in prime cult

314
00:15:06,829 --> 00:15:04,500
development territory now because you

315
00:15:09,410 --> 00:15:06,839
combine the internet with a lot of

316
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:09,420
people being disillusioned with the way

317
00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:13,410
the world is and it being the internet

318
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:15,600
making it really really easy to make

319
00:15:19,939 --> 00:15:19,199
things that aren't true seem true that's

320
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:19,949
all you need

321
00:15:25,309 --> 00:15:23,370
feeling before we leave the various

322
00:15:26,329 --> 00:15:25,319
cults for a moment there's one last one

323
00:15:27,949 --> 00:15:26,339
I'll give you to comment on

324
00:15:30,439 --> 00:15:27,959
briefly and I saw this come up I haven't

325
00:15:34,819 --> 00:15:30,449
listened to the episode yet the Colt

326
00:15:37,579 --> 00:15:34,829
revolving around Prince Philip oh right

327
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:37,589
that's look I don't want to describe any

328
00:15:46,269 --> 00:15:41,610
cults as adorable but the Prince Philip

329
00:15:49,340 --> 00:15:46,279
movement is adorable there's a whole

330
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:49,350
there's a class of cults called cargo

331
00:15:59,170 --> 00:15:52,110
cults right and they're generally based

332
00:16:02,600 --> 00:15:59,180
in Vanuatu in Papua New Guinea and they

333
00:16:06,290 --> 00:16:02,610
generally started with some fairly

334
00:16:10,129 --> 00:16:06,300
remote tribes and other groups in those

335
00:16:11,210 --> 00:16:10,139
areas around World War two when American

336
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:11,220
soldiers would come through because

337
00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:16,110
those areas were used as a base and the

338
00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:19,170
Islanders would say and I know this this

339
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:20,550
sounds like I'm being provincial but it

340
00:16:24,860 --> 00:16:22,350
was odd of the time and they'd have some

341
00:16:29,900 --> 00:16:24,870
fairly isolated groups yeah they would

342
00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:29,910
say they clothing and the products that

343
00:16:34,189 --> 00:16:31,649
these people would bring with them and

344
00:16:37,369 --> 00:16:34,199
they thought oh these are people have

345
00:16:42,739 --> 00:16:37,379
been blessed by gods and they saw

346
00:16:45,530 --> 00:16:42,749
possessions as a symbol of divinity and

347
00:16:47,059 --> 00:16:45,540
that you know you you're spiritually

348
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:47,069
superior therefore the gods have blessed

349
00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:50,480
you with these products we don't they

350
00:16:58,460 --> 00:16:56,490
they would see manifesting via cargo so

351
00:17:02,350 --> 00:16:58,470
there's people making models of planes

352
00:17:05,899 --> 00:17:02,360
and that sort of thing and because of

353
00:17:08,149 --> 00:17:05,909
because of colonialism at in some

354
00:17:11,269 --> 00:17:08,159
buildings or official you know like post

355
00:17:13,789 --> 00:17:11,279
offices or in in the towns there might

356
00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:13,799
be a picture of the Queen put up in

357
00:17:17,539 --> 00:17:15,720
these buildings that some tribes tribal

358
00:17:21,529 --> 00:17:17,549
elders have access to when they go and

359
00:17:23,870 --> 00:17:21,539
do duties down the road and so they

360
00:17:26,809 --> 00:17:23,880
would see most of them didn't think that

361
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:26,819
the Queen would be there the deity they

362
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:28,770
saw Prince Philip he's the man therefore

363
00:17:34,940 --> 00:17:32,370
he he must be forgotten he had all the

364
00:17:38,889 --> 00:17:34,950
riches in the world oh yeah they thought

365
00:17:40,159 --> 00:17:38,899
ah right he's got the most stuff he's

366
00:17:42,019 --> 00:17:40,169
the big

367
00:17:43,999 --> 00:17:42,029
man that's in photographs and on the

368
00:17:49,009 --> 00:17:44,009
other side of the world he must be a god

369
00:17:52,070 --> 00:17:49,019
Wow so there's a specific group in Papua

370
00:17:55,940 --> 00:17:52,080
New Guinea that worships Prince Phillip

371
00:17:59,269 --> 00:17:55,950
as a God okay that yeah I've certainly

372
00:18:00,919 --> 00:17:59,279
heard of that along the years and I

373
00:18:02,419 --> 00:18:00,929
guess you're right I guess I mean would

374
00:18:03,979 --> 00:18:02,429
you call it a cult or would you call it

375
00:18:06,499 --> 00:18:03,989
something else but it sort of loosely

376
00:18:08,029 --> 00:18:06,509
fits the definition I guess well yeah it

377
00:18:11,590 --> 00:18:08,039
kind of does a bit I mean the definition

378
00:18:14,779 --> 00:18:11,600
of cultures generally loose anyway right

379
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:14,789
because nobody wants to draw the line

380
00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:18,570
between mainstream religions and cults

381
00:18:24,109 --> 00:18:19,919
it's too risky

382
00:18:27,409 --> 00:18:24,119
right right but cargo cults have have

383
00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:27,419
developed that name over history and one

384
00:18:30,409 --> 00:18:28,830
of it that's one of the things I like to

385
00:18:33,769 --> 00:18:30,419
do as well and I think I did an episode

386
00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:33,779
on killing because the media has said

387
00:18:39,349 --> 00:18:36,720
he's running a sex cult and I do like

388
00:18:42,470 --> 00:18:39,359
sometimes to examine whether things that

389
00:18:44,269 --> 00:18:42,480
are called cults do have you know the

390
00:18:45,769 --> 00:18:44,279
loose criteria and to what extent

391
00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:45,779
sometimes it's just a good yarn

392
00:18:52,820 --> 00:18:49,769
sometimes it is it is more culty than

393
00:18:54,649 --> 00:18:52,830
you expect now is this the sort of all

394
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:54,659
these cults are they mentioned in your

395
00:18:57,799 --> 00:18:55,919
book and please tell us a little bit

396
00:18:59,810 --> 00:18:57,809
about your book did that come first or

397
00:19:02,450 --> 00:18:59,820
was that the podcast came first the

398
00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:02,460
podcast came first and I think with the

399
00:19:07,460 --> 00:19:05,190
book I wanted to I've included quite a

400
00:19:10,220 --> 00:19:07,470
lot of Australian references and most of

401
00:19:13,549 --> 00:19:10,230
the cults in it it's it's just focused

402
00:19:15,379 --> 00:19:13,559
on 10 of my favorites right and I really

403
00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:15,389
hesitate to use the word favor yeah I

404
00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:16,980
thought it was a strange choice of word

405
00:19:23,060 --> 00:19:19,830
but I know who'd you be

406
00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:23,070
for example David Koresh so the Branch

407
00:19:26,389 --> 00:19:23,700
Davidians

408
00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:26,399
they recruited heavily in in Australia

409
00:19:32,139 --> 00:19:28,470
and they had a number of Australians

410
00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:32,149
died in the in the fire at Waco right

411
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:35,129
the family the Australian the Australian

412
00:19:40,159 --> 00:19:38,129
cult they could based at Lake Eldon but

413
00:19:41,930 --> 00:19:40,169
it's basically the 10 cults that I find

414
00:19:45,379 --> 00:19:41,940
the most interesting or might be their

415
00:19:47,479 --> 00:19:45,389
most well known or in the example of a

416
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:47,489
lesser known cult called Colonia

417
00:19:53,570 --> 00:19:51,210
Dignidad which was a bunch of German

418
00:19:56,390 --> 00:19:53,580
expatriates in Chile head

419
00:19:58,990 --> 00:19:56,400
by an actual ex-nazi and that was one of

420
00:20:04,720 --> 00:19:59,000
the most horrific cults barbwire

421
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:04,730
Alsatians Wow awful child sexual abuse

422
00:20:11,780 --> 00:20:08,490
imprisonment and everyone needing to be

423
00:20:13,580 --> 00:20:11,790
completely silent at all times that one

424
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:13,590
I kept that one near the middle because

425
00:20:19,670 --> 00:20:16,260
you really need something a little more

426
00:20:21,650 --> 00:20:19,680
update after that one to not despair so

427
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:21,660
I just I picked the ones that I think

428
00:20:29,660 --> 00:20:26,400
had the best meatiest stories with a

429
00:20:32,150 --> 00:20:29,670
tiny bit of horror mixed in just the

430
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:32,160
right amount no wait where can people

431
00:20:37,340 --> 00:20:35,730
pick up their a copy of that book it's

432
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:37,350
I'd love to say it's in all good

433
00:20:44,570 --> 00:20:39,710
bookstores but it's also in the bad one

434
00:20:46,250 --> 00:20:44,580
yeah so and it's available online and I

435
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:46,260
had a great time recording the audio

436
00:20:52,310 --> 00:20:49,050
book which is available on all the audio

437
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:52,320
book apps as well all right well folks

438
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:55,440
look I will link to the URL for Joe's

439
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:57,810
book in this week's show notes I shall

440
00:21:04,130 --> 00:21:00,480
also link to the URL for your podcast

441
00:21:06,380 --> 00:21:04,140
which people can ease drop in on and

442
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:06,390
have a listen to all the different cults

443
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:08,970
that you talk about and finally yes

444
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:11,010
great news you will be appearing at

445
00:21:17,150 --> 00:21:14,370
skeptic on 2019 in Melbourne and I guess

446
00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:17,160
what we've just lightly touched on today

447
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:19,200
is the sort of thing you're going to be

448
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:20,850
telling the audience down there in

449
00:21:27,860 --> 00:21:24,930
Melbourne yes I hope to look into how

450
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:27,870
cult leaders recruit people and what

451
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:29,490
makes those people believe and gives

452
00:21:34,430 --> 00:21:31,650
them some hopefully entertaining

453
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,440
examples looking forward to that

454
00:21:38,750 --> 00:21:36,720
immensely of course there's it's a

455
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:38,760
fascinating area but as you mentioned

456
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:42,480
the horror aspects of it the very real

457
00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:45,210
dangers the sad suicides that we hear

458
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:47,280
about and the abuse you have mentioned

459
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:49,890
is that the very serious side indeed of

460
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:52,770
cults but altogether I think it's a very

461
00:21:58,130 --> 00:21:55,410
worthwhile thing for skeptics especially

462
00:22:00,379 --> 00:21:58,140
to learn about and hear about and folks

463
00:22:03,049 --> 00:22:00,389
you can do that by listening to Joe

464
00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:03,059
reading her book or seeing her in person

465
00:22:07,070 --> 00:22:05,340
at skeptic on 2019

466
00:22:08,810 --> 00:22:07,080
well joke that's great honor you've

467
00:22:10,430 --> 00:22:08,820
waited my appetite for some more I might

468
00:22:12,229 --> 00:22:10,440
have another listen to your podcast and

469
00:22:13,849 --> 00:22:12,239
I look forward to seeing you in

470
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:13,859
Melbourne but for now thank you very

471
00:22:30,379 --> 00:22:26,830
[Music]

472
00:22:32,629 --> 00:22:30,389
skeptic on 2019 the Australian skeptics

473
00:22:38,269 --> 00:22:32,639
National Convention will be in Melbourne

474
00:22:39,919 --> 00:22:38,279
from the 6th to the 8th of December we

475
00:22:42,289 --> 00:22:39,929
have an impressive speaker line-up

476
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:42,299
including the skeptics guide to the

477
00:22:48,709 --> 00:22:45,330
universe dr. Steve novella Jay novella

478
00:22:51,709 --> 00:22:48,719
Cara Santa Maria Bob novella and Evan

479
00:22:54,430 --> 00:22:51,719
Bernstein also susan gerbic from

480
00:22:56,779 --> 00:22:54,440
guerrilla skepticism on wikipedia and

481
00:23:00,589 --> 00:22:56,789
many other international and local

482
00:23:03,859 --> 00:23:00,599
guests including Joe Thorley the host of

483
00:23:07,089 --> 00:23:03,869
zealot a podcast about cults and an

484
00:23:09,739 --> 00:23:07,099
author of a book by the same name

485
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:09,749
skeptic God includes a trivia night on

486
00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:12,330
Thursday the 5th of December to test

487
00:23:18,589 --> 00:23:16,529
your skeptical knowledge for more

488
00:23:21,070 --> 00:23:18,599
information about the event the speakers

489
00:23:24,889 --> 00:23:21,080
and how to buy tickets visit skeptic

490
00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:24,899
on.org dot a you or follow the link in

491
00:23:39,900 --> 00:23:26,350
this week's show notes

492
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:43,870
it's the raw skeptic report with Heidi

493
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:53,450
Robertson hello everyone this is Heidi

494
00:23:59,320 --> 00:23:55,010
Robertson from the Northern Rivers

495
00:24:01,930 --> 00:23:59,330
vaccinations supporters the Therapeutic

496
00:24:05,740 --> 00:24:01,940
Goods Administration otherwise known as

497
00:24:08,110 --> 00:24:05,750
the TGA here in Australia is part of the

498
00:24:10,570 --> 00:24:08,120
Australian Department of Health and is

499
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:10,580
responsible for regulating therapeutic

500
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:13,010
goods including as per their website

501
00:24:19,930 --> 00:24:16,570
quote prescription medicines vaccines

502
00:24:23,350 --> 00:24:19,940
sunscreens vitamins and minerals medical

503
00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:23,360
devices blood and blood products end

504
00:24:31,659 --> 00:24:24,260
quote

505
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:31,669
which therapeutic claims are made must

506
00:24:36,430 --> 00:24:34,010
be entered into the Australian register

507
00:24:39,419 --> 00:24:36,440
of Therapeutic Goods before it can be

508
00:24:42,370 --> 00:24:39,429
supplied in Australia end quote

509
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:42,380
longtime listeners of the skeptic zone

510
00:24:50,740 --> 00:24:45,770
podcast may recall a report I did way

511
00:24:53,919 --> 00:24:50,750
back in episode number 348 which gives a

512
00:24:58,810 --> 00:24:53,929
rundown on the next level quackery that

513
00:25:01,930 --> 00:24:58,820
is the bio resonance machine so it's

514
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:01,940
good news that the TGA has released the

515
00:25:11,590 --> 00:25:04,850
following statement dated the 16th of

516
00:25:14,140 --> 00:25:11,600
August 2019 it's titled TGA cracking

517
00:25:15,310 --> 00:25:14,150
down on non-compliant advertising of

518
00:25:20,380 --> 00:25:15,320
bioresonance

519
00:25:21,789 --> 00:25:20,390
and similar devices quote in May 2009

520
00:25:25,150 --> 00:25:21,799
teen the Therapeutic Goods

521
00:25:27,570 --> 00:25:25,160
Administration the TGA commenced work on

522
00:25:29,860 --> 00:25:27,580
a sector wide compliance activity

523
00:25:33,370 --> 00:25:29,870
relating to the advertising of

524
00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:33,380
bioresonance devices which are sometimes

525
00:25:40,060 --> 00:25:36,110
mistakenly promoted as biofeedback

526
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:40,070
devices this sector has been identified

527
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:42,690
as having a high rate of advertised

528
00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:45,200
in non-compliance with widespread

529
00:25:50,450 --> 00:25:48,000
advertising the advertising of

530
00:25:54,460 --> 00:25:50,460
bioresonance has been the subject of

531
00:25:56,990 --> 00:25:54,470
previous regulatory compliance actions

532
00:26:00,080 --> 00:25:57,000
bioresonance is based on the belief that

533
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:00,090
human beings emit electromagnetic waves

534
00:26:06,770 --> 00:26:02,610
which can only be measured by

535
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:06,780
bioresonance devices advertisers claim

536
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:09,330
these devices can measure these waves to

537
00:26:16,370 --> 00:26:12,330
detect illness in the human body as well

538
00:26:19,670 --> 00:26:16,380
as sending quote rehabilitated bad end

539
00:26:23,120 --> 00:26:19,680
quote waves to the patient to alleviate

540
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:23,130
illness the TGA is currently

541
00:26:27,740 --> 00:26:25,610
investigating the scientific credibility

542
00:26:31,340 --> 00:26:27,750
relating to the diagnostic and

543
00:26:33,380 --> 00:26:31,350
therapeutic use of these devices the TGA

544
00:26:35,690 --> 00:26:33,390
is also working to address other

545
00:26:37,790 --> 00:26:35,700
concerns about the advertising of these

546
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:37,800
devices by a large number of health

547
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:40,110
practitioners promoting them for the

548
00:26:46,610 --> 00:26:42,450
detection and treatment of serious

549
00:26:49,810 --> 00:26:46,620
ailments diseases and conditions these

550
00:26:52,940 --> 00:26:49,820
claims are prohibited and restricted

551
00:26:54,830 --> 00:26:52,950
representations some non-compliant

552
00:26:58,130 --> 00:26:54,840
advertisements claim that this therapy

553
00:27:00,550 --> 00:26:58,140
can assist with or treat severe health

554
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:00,560
conditions like cancers or diseases

555
00:27:07,580 --> 00:27:04,650
joint pain osteoarthritis clearing the

556
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:07,590
body of heavy metals disorders like

557
00:27:13,580 --> 00:27:11,130
chronic fatigue and insomnia mental

558
00:27:17,590 --> 00:27:13,590
health conditions including anxiety and

559
00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:17,600
ADHD vitamin and mineral deficiencies

560
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:21,020
food allergies or intolerance 'as

561
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:25,110
addictions autism learning difficulties

562
00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:28,080
and the side effects of Western

563
00:27:35,660 --> 00:27:30,590
medicines including chemotherapy and

564
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:35,670
antibiotics what the TGA will do we take

565
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:38,690
non-compliance by advertisers seriously

566
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:41,010
particularly when there is the potential

567
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:43,410
for consumers to rely on claims in

568
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:45,840
advertising to seek treatment when those

569
00:27:51,740 --> 00:27:49,170
claims may be false or misleading as a

570
00:27:54,860 --> 00:27:51,750
result the TGA is conducting a

571
00:27:56,690 --> 00:27:54,870
regulatory activity as a priority in

572
00:27:59,690 --> 00:27:56,700
this sector

573
00:28:02,149 --> 00:27:59,700
this includes working closely with our

574
00:28:04,479 --> 00:28:02,159
counterparts including other federal

575
00:28:06,830 --> 00:28:04,489
regulators and state and territory

576
00:28:09,289 --> 00:28:06,840
government bodies and professional

577
00:28:11,919 --> 00:28:09,299
bodies to share the information on our

578
00:28:15,289 --> 00:28:11,929
activities on bioresonance device

579
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:15,299
non-compliance issues writing to

580
00:28:19,849 --> 00:28:17,369
relevant practitioner peak bodies and

581
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:19,859
sponsors of bioresonance devices to

582
00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:22,080
alert them to the advertising compliance

583
00:28:27,049 --> 00:28:25,230
issues faced by their sector and seek

584
00:28:30,249 --> 00:28:27,059
their assistance with disseminating

585
00:28:33,109 --> 00:28:30,259
information and rectifying these issues

586
00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:33,119
two months following the completion of

587
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:35,940
this activity the TGA will conduct a

588
00:28:41,299 --> 00:28:38,570
round of random advertising reviews

589
00:28:45,049 --> 00:28:41,309
gauging the level of compliance achieved

590
00:28:47,090 --> 00:28:45,059
all non-compliant cases identified will

591
00:28:49,450 --> 00:28:47,100
be escalated to a higher level of

592
00:28:52,159 --> 00:28:49,460
non-compliance category 4 investigation

593
00:28:57,139 --> 00:28:52,169
where appropriate compliance enforcement

594
00:29:00,259 --> 00:28:57,149
actions will be applied what you should

595
00:29:02,989 --> 00:29:00,269
do if you advertise bioresonance devices

596
00:29:05,930 --> 00:29:02,999
if you have advertised or intend to

597
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:05,940
advertise these types of devices you

598
00:29:11,659 --> 00:29:08,159
should talk to your peak body or

599
00:29:14,060 --> 00:29:11,669
regulatory affairs consultant check if

600
00:29:18,019 --> 00:29:14,070
the device is on the Australian register

601
00:29:20,690 --> 00:29:18,029
of Therapeutic Goods the AR TG if the

602
00:29:23,659 --> 00:29:20,700
device is not on the AR TG don't

603
00:29:27,139 --> 00:29:23,669
advertise the product if the device is

604
00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:27,149
on the AR TG make sure your advertising

605
00:29:31,849 --> 00:29:29,190
is compliant with the advertising

606
00:29:34,570 --> 00:29:31,859
requirements and don't refer to her

607
00:29:37,759 --> 00:29:34,580
prohibited representations or restricted

608
00:29:40,879 --> 00:29:37,769
representations considering bio

609
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:40,889
residents if you are considering seeking

610
00:29:44,830 --> 00:29:42,960
diagnosis or treatment of your health

611
00:29:46,070 --> 00:29:44,840
conditions using bio resonance

612
00:29:49,489 --> 00:29:46,080
biofeedback

613
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:49,499
and similar devices please read three

614
00:29:55,450 --> 00:29:51,690
questions to ask natural health

615
00:29:59,810 --> 00:29:55,460
practitioners about testing services and

616
00:30:02,389 --> 00:29:59,820
their they link to another page within

617
00:30:09,229 --> 00:30:02,399
the TGA website for further information

618
00:30:10,460 --> 00:30:09,239
you can contact the TGA end quote so

619
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:10,470
this is good news

620
00:30:16,789 --> 00:30:14,610
as I believe or at least I've I've not

621
00:30:20,810 --> 00:30:16,799
found a bioresonance device that

622
00:30:23,390 --> 00:30:20,820
actually is listed on the a RTG and just

623
00:30:25,789 --> 00:30:23,400
based on that alone practitioners should

624
00:30:27,740 --> 00:30:25,799
not even be advertising the product let

625
00:30:29,870 --> 00:30:27,750
alone making the sorts of claims that

626
00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:29,880
they're making that bioresonance therapy

627
00:30:37,250 --> 00:30:33,960
can can do or can achieve for their for

628
00:30:40,299 --> 00:30:37,260
their patients or their clients so now's

629
00:30:43,789 --> 00:30:40,309
the time to write into the TGA with some

630
00:30:46,370 --> 00:30:43,799
concerns or complaints it's quite easy

631
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:46,380
to find by our residents practitioners

632
00:30:51,340 --> 00:30:48,090
just by googling exactly that

633
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:51,350
bioresonance practitioners Australia and

634
00:30:59,350 --> 00:30:55,380
no doubt there is one within your

635
00:31:02,630 --> 00:30:59,360
vicinity or closeby in Australia and

636
00:31:06,919 --> 00:31:02,640
hopefully the TGA will do what they've

637
00:31:11,029 --> 00:31:06,929
said they will do and crack down on this

638
00:31:13,789 --> 00:31:11,039
device and these practitioners thanks

639
00:31:16,399 --> 00:31:13,799
for listening and till next time this

640
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:16,409
has been Heidi Robertson from the

641
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:19,090
Northern Rivers vaccination supporters

642
00:31:29,860 --> 00:31:27,530
[Music]

643
00:31:31,570 --> 00:31:29,870
hello listeners a maximum fun I want to

644
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:31,580
tell you about our newest podcast that

645
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:33,530
tells you all about the truth of the

646
00:31:36,340 --> 00:31:35,090
Flat Earth have you been looking out

647
00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:36,350
over the horizon and you've been

648
00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:37,310
thinking wait a minute

649
00:31:42,220 --> 00:31:39,590
this doesn't look round I've been lied

650
00:31:47,230 --> 00:31:42,230
to my whole life what is NASA doing with

651
00:31:50,860 --> 00:31:47,240
52 million dollars a day come on we

652
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:50,870
explode the myths just kidding we're ho

653
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:52,970
no Ross and Carrie and we investigate

654
00:31:57,010 --> 00:31:55,490
extraordinary claims that's right we

655
00:31:59,410 --> 00:31:57,020
investigate extraordinary claims

656
00:32:01,360 --> 00:31:59,420
firsthand we go undercover in fringe

657
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:01,370
groups we get alternative medicine

658
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:03,410
treatments and we hang out with people

659
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:05,570
who have unusual beliefs like flat

660
00:32:10,030 --> 00:32:07,730
earthers 9/11 truthers we do ghost

661
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:10,040
investigations we've joined Scientology

662
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:11,810
and we got baptized in the Mormon Church

663
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:14,720
if it goes bump in the night then so do

664
00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:18,110
we hmm why don't you check out oh no

665
00:32:22,310 --> 00:32:28,180
Wow

666
00:32:28,190 --> 00:32:35,410
[Music]

667
00:32:39,670 --> 00:32:37,780
now it's time to dive once again into

668
00:32:42,130 --> 00:32:39,680
the pages of the skeptic the journal

669
00:32:45,940 --> 00:32:42,140
from Australian skeptics all the way

670
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:45,950
back to 1994 volume 14 number four on

671
00:32:53,540 --> 00:32:49,810
page 22 a report by Barry Williams an

672
00:32:58,639 --> 00:32:53,550
innocent among the UFO

673
00:33:04,620 --> 00:33:01,740
sometimes you let yourself in for things

674
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:04,630
that on mature reflection you probably

675
00:33:10,259 --> 00:33:08,110
wish you hadn't in September I agreed to

676
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:10,269
speak at the Great Australian science

677
00:33:17,460 --> 00:33:13,330
show in Sydney and gave as the title of

678
00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:17,470
my talk I was abducted by a UFO this

679
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:19,809
subject was used by the organizers in

680
00:33:24,419 --> 00:33:22,090
their publicity for the show and the

681
00:33:27,389 --> 00:33:24,429
fact that a skeptic was giving a talk

682
00:33:30,419 --> 00:33:27,399
with that title received a Monica more

683
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:30,429
lighthearted coverage in the media on

684
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:33,970
the fateful day I arrived at the lecture

685
00:33:39,870 --> 00:33:36,970
theatre to find a full house a fact I

686
00:33:42,860 --> 00:33:39,880
attributed to my identification during a

687
00:33:46,259 --> 00:33:42,870
similar appearance the previous year as

688
00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:46,269
Professor Barry Williams during the

689
00:33:51,740 --> 00:33:49,720
intervening time I let no opportunity

690
00:33:54,899 --> 00:33:51,750
pass to remind my professorial

691
00:33:58,049 --> 00:33:54,909
acquaintances that while they had to

692
00:34:00,690 --> 00:33:58,059
strive with research teaching indulgence

693
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:00,700
in University politics crawling to Vice

694
00:34:05,340 --> 00:34:03,010
Chancellors to achieve their exalted

695
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:05,350
positions I had acquired equal

696
00:34:09,569 --> 00:34:07,210
distinction with no expenditure of

697
00:34:12,050 --> 00:34:09,579
effort whatsoever not being one to

698
00:34:15,629 --> 00:34:12,060
disappoint an audience I assumed my best

699
00:34:18,149 --> 00:34:15,639
pseudo academic demeanor and proceeded

700
00:34:21,690 --> 00:34:18,159
to give forth pearls of distilled wisdom

701
00:34:24,780 --> 00:34:21,700
on the phenomenon of UFO abductions with

702
00:34:26,990 --> 00:34:24,790
not a few sideways excursions to give

703
00:34:29,669 --> 00:34:27,000
verbal kickings to creationists

704
00:34:32,849 --> 00:34:29,679
astrologers and diviners and other

705
00:34:35,250 --> 00:34:32,859
new-age crackpots carried away with my

706
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:35,260
own rhetoric I paid scant attention to a

707
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:38,050
certain restiveness among the assembled

708
00:34:43,740 --> 00:34:41,530
multitude or at least if I did notice it

709
00:34:46,020 --> 00:34:43,750
I put it down to the obviously

710
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:46,030
uncomfortable seating arrangements when

711
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:48,480
my dissertation came to its inevitable

712
00:34:54,450 --> 00:34:51,359
only unkind people would say overdue

713
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:54,460
conclusion I beamed out at the audience

714
00:34:59,640 --> 00:34:56,770
noting in the front row the friendly

715
00:35:03,270 --> 00:34:59,650
smiling faces of longtime skeptics Fred

716
00:35:05,579 --> 00:35:03,280
and Sylar Flatow and asked for questions

717
00:35:08,190 --> 00:35:05,589
the first came from a young man who

718
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:08,200
launched into a ringing denunciation of

719
00:35:13,230 --> 00:35:10,420
me for daring to question

720
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:13,240
the bona fide ease of such UFO gurus as

721
00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:16,290
Professor John Mac before declaring me a

722
00:35:24,299 --> 00:35:20,200
very dangerous man and demanding that I

723
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:24,309
explain the marks on my body my response

724
00:35:30,210 --> 00:35:27,490
was that the only serious danger I posed

725
00:35:32,220 --> 00:35:30,220
to anyone would be if I stumbled and

726
00:35:34,829 --> 00:35:32,230
fell on them then I tried to explain

727
00:35:37,740 --> 00:35:34,839
that the encouragement of people in

728
00:35:39,870 --> 00:35:37,750
their delusions rather than an offer of

729
00:35:41,609 --> 00:35:39,880
professional help to understand them was

730
00:35:44,780 --> 00:35:41,619
probably the greatest danger that

731
00:35:47,370 --> 00:35:44,790
existed in the UFO abduction debate I

732
00:35:50,099 --> 00:35:47,380
couldn't see any marks on his body

733
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:50,109
not being trained in any medical skills

734
00:35:54,500 --> 00:35:52,210
I probably wouldn't be able to explain

735
00:35:58,020 --> 00:35:54,510
them even if I could I therefore

736
00:36:00,750 --> 00:35:58,030
suggested that he asked someone so

737
00:36:02,370 --> 00:36:00,760
trained to have a look as he seemed to

738
00:36:05,220 --> 00:36:02,380
want to continue the discussion at

739
00:36:07,109 --> 00:36:05,230
length I asked him to see me after and

740
00:36:10,220 --> 00:36:07,119
asked for more questions

741
00:36:12,990 --> 00:36:10,230
the next came from another young man who

742
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:13,000
advanced that good old standby of the

743
00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:15,730
New Age doctrine didn't I think it was

744
00:36:21,450 --> 00:36:18,250
time for a paradigm shift in scientific

745
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:21,460
thinking if Western science couldn't

746
00:36:26,609 --> 00:36:23,710
explain to all the mystical things that

747
00:36:28,890 --> 00:36:26,619
people were experiencing my response was

748
00:36:31,650 --> 00:36:28,900
equally standard that we needed a great

749
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:31,660
deal more evidence that many such things

750
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:34,450
were in fact happening before we needed

751
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:36,910
to disregard the most successful tool we

752
00:36:41,849 --> 00:36:39,130
had yet devised for understanding the

753
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:41,859
natural world at this stage I made a

754
00:36:46,289 --> 00:36:44,410
private resolution to myself to endeavor

755
00:36:50,549 --> 00:36:46,299
to meet the Philosopher's who gave the

756
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:50,559
term paradigm shift to the world I would

757
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:53,680
like to drop him down a lift shaft this

758
00:36:58,559 --> 00:36:55,930
young man also seemed to wish to debate

759
00:37:00,960 --> 00:36:58,569
the matter at length while the original

760
00:37:03,510 --> 00:37:00,970
young man indicated his desire to

761
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:03,520
continue his discussion and a couple of

762
00:37:08,549 --> 00:37:05,530
others through queries in a similar vein

763
00:37:11,609 --> 00:37:08,559
with everyone exhibiting the distressing

764
00:37:13,380 --> 00:37:11,619
tendency of talking at once only the

765
00:37:15,569 --> 00:37:13,390
flat hose and a visiting Victorian

766
00:37:19,289 --> 00:37:15,579
skeptic whose name I did not catch

767
00:37:21,660 --> 00:37:19,299
seemed inclined to join the debate on my

768
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:21,670
side and there I must confess my

769
00:37:26,580 --> 00:37:24,160
admiration for Soloff Leto

770
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:26,590
whose tenacity in pursuit of a point

771
00:37:31,620 --> 00:37:29,010
would make Ian's climber envious a

772
00:37:35,250 --> 00:37:31,630
horrible thought began to dawn on me

773
00:37:37,470 --> 00:37:35,260
here was I almost alone and defenseless

774
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:37,480
in a room full of people who seriously

775
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:40,050
believed that they had been unwilling

776
00:37:48,690 --> 00:37:44,710
guests on alien vessels where was the

777
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:48,700
nearest exit beam me up Scotty nervously

778
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:51,130
I concluded the session and was

779
00:37:56,190 --> 00:37:53,530
presented by the young man with the

780
00:37:58,230 --> 00:37:56,200
marks on his body with a photocopy of a

781
00:38:02,550 --> 00:37:58,240
magazine article which described how he

782
00:38:05,190 --> 00:38:02,560
had received them he had awakened in his

783
00:38:08,370 --> 00:38:05,200
room to find mysterious figures at his

784
00:38:10,380 --> 00:38:08,380
bedside he was paralyzed and after

785
00:38:13,530 --> 00:38:10,390
various adventures he had awakened to

786
00:38:15,150 --> 00:38:13,540
find the strange wounds on his legs the

787
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:15,160
photographs with the article showed a

788
00:38:20,130 --> 00:38:17,410
couple of scars or depressions in his

789
00:38:22,830 --> 00:38:20,140
leg and the accompanying caption said

790
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:22,840
that some doctors claimed they looked

791
00:38:28,410 --> 00:38:25,450
like the marks left by biopsy punctures

792
00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:28,420
to me they bore a striking resemblance

793
00:38:34,410 --> 00:38:32,200
to the scar left on my nose whereas skin

794
00:38:37,590 --> 00:38:34,420
cancer had been removed recently by a

795
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:37,600
plastic surgeon wait a minute a mark on

796
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:38,410
my nose

797
00:38:43,020 --> 00:38:40,690
the second favorite site for alien

798
00:38:45,780 --> 00:38:43,030
experimentation on humans after the

799
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:45,790
naughty bits I therefore resolved to

800
00:38:50,370 --> 00:38:48,430
investigate my plastic surgeon who for

801
00:38:52,830 --> 00:38:50,380
ethical reasons I cannot name here

802
00:38:56,130 --> 00:38:52,840
although he does subscribe to the

803
00:38:59,820 --> 00:38:56,140
skeptic all I wish to say to him is

804
00:39:03,660 --> 00:38:59,830
quote doctor X or should that be X

805
00:39:05,790 --> 00:39:03,670
percentage three asterisks exclamation

806
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:05,800
exclamation exclamation question mark

807
00:39:11,510 --> 00:39:09,190
from the Pleiades your secret remains

808
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:11,520
safe with me or it will if you leave a

809
00:39:17,010 --> 00:39:14,050
substantial sum in small denomination

810
00:39:20,220 --> 00:39:17,020
unmarked notes in the skeptics post box

811
00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:20,230
office in quote the young man also left

812
00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:22,390
me a leaflet praising the work of dr.

813
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:25,000
Mac and advertising a Sydney Centre for

814
00:39:30,060 --> 00:39:28,210
assisting UFO abductees of which he

815
00:39:33,060 --> 00:39:30,070
seemed to be the principal officer

816
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:33,070
perhaps after all his attack on me was

817
00:39:37,710 --> 00:39:36,730
not entirely a disinterested one after

818
00:39:39,330 --> 00:39:37,720
the event

819
00:39:42,330 --> 00:39:39,340
I fell into conversation with Bill

820
00:39:45,450 --> 00:39:42,340
choker one of the more rational of the

821
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:45,460
UFO investigators bill threw at me the

822
00:39:50,099 --> 00:39:47,650
accusation that skeptics do not

823
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:50,109
investigate UFO sightings but merely

824
00:39:55,740 --> 00:39:53,050
call the sightings into question by

825
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:55,750
respondent that it remains entirely the

826
00:39:59,609 --> 00:39:57,490
responsibility of those making

827
00:40:01,500 --> 00:39:59,619
extraordinary claims to provide the

828
00:40:03,810 --> 00:40:01,510
extraordinary evidence to support them

829
00:40:06,450 --> 00:40:03,820
and that the proper role for a skeptic

830
00:40:08,460 --> 00:40:06,460
is to raise doubts to ask questions to

831
00:40:10,650 --> 00:40:08,470
keep the enterprise within the bounds of

832
00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:10,660
reason or within the constraints imposed

833
00:40:17,820 --> 00:40:14,310
by the evidence we agreed that around

834
00:40:21,930 --> 00:40:17,830
97% of UFO sightings could be easily

835
00:40:24,390 --> 00:40:21,940
explained as miss perceptions of common

836
00:40:27,330 --> 00:40:24,400
natural or artificial phenomena self

837
00:40:29,370 --> 00:40:27,340
delusions or hoaxes which left a residue

838
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:29,380
of sightings that were not so easily

839
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:32,710
categorized Bill's contention was that

840
00:40:39,540 --> 00:40:36,330
someone the skeptics the government

841
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:39,550
science had a duty to explore these

842
00:40:44,370 --> 00:40:41,410
sightings and to explain them to the

843
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:44,380
public at large my response was that if

844
00:40:48,150 --> 00:40:46,240
anyone found these sightings to be

845
00:40:50,849 --> 00:40:48,160
interesting enough then they certainly

846
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:50,859
would be investigated but that there was

847
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:54,790
no compulsion on anyone to do so which

848
00:40:59,550 --> 00:40:56,530
is where the skeptic and the believer

849
00:41:02,040 --> 00:40:59,560
even a reasonably rational one part

850
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:02,050
company most of the interest in UFOs

851
00:41:07,829 --> 00:41:04,390
among the public stems from the wild

852
00:41:10,290 --> 00:41:07,839
stories and even wilder hypotheses that

853
00:41:12,750 --> 00:41:10,300
are promulgated by the irrational UFO

854
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:12,760
noughts when that mad hyperbole is

855
00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:15,310
discounted then the remaining phenomena

856
00:41:20,190 --> 00:41:17,230
are not all that exciting to the average

857
00:41:22,980 --> 00:41:20,200
punter or for that matter to the average

858
00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:22,990
of scientists so the investigation of

859
00:41:27,930 --> 00:41:25,420
the residue of sightings is unlikely to

860
00:41:30,450 --> 00:41:27,940
attract funding or interest from among

861
00:41:32,370 --> 00:41:30,460
the scientific community until there is

862
00:41:34,770 --> 00:41:32,380
sufficient evidence that such interest

863
00:41:37,410 --> 00:41:34,780
will be rewarded with tangible results

864
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:37,420
this is best exemplified by the strange

865
00:41:42,750 --> 00:41:40,720
social phenomenon of crop circles when

866
00:41:45,390 --> 00:41:42,760
simple circles started appearing in

867
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:45,400
grain crops people began to investigate

868
00:41:50,270 --> 00:41:48,730
them to find the explanation where it

869
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:50,280
usually took the form of a

870
00:41:55,740 --> 00:41:51,850
meteorological phenomena

871
00:41:58,140 --> 00:41:55,750
as the circles became more elaborate so

872
00:42:00,890 --> 00:41:58,150
even more rapidly did the explanations

873
00:42:04,770 --> 00:42:00,900
diverge from the rational

874
00:42:08,310 --> 00:42:04,780
extraterrestrials Gaia coasties Ghoulies

875
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:08,320
and long-legged beasties and things that

876
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:11,890
go bump in the night were all blamed but

877
00:42:17,610 --> 00:42:14,800
the most logical explanation and very

878
00:42:19,650 --> 00:42:17,620
probably the correct one the human

879
00:42:21,810 --> 00:42:19,660
propensity to have a joke was

880
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:21,820
universally denigrated by those who

881
00:42:26,850 --> 00:42:24,610
wanted to believe the investigations and

882
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:26,860
the explanations got wilder and wilder

883
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:29,920
that is until the evidence of ordinary

884
00:42:35,010 --> 00:42:32,490
humans being the cause and the

885
00:42:37,620 --> 00:42:35,020
continuing inability of those who had

886
00:42:40,110 --> 00:42:37,630
become self elected experts to

887
00:42:43,470 --> 00:42:40,120
distinguish between a hoax and a highly

888
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:43,480
dubious real thing became overwhelming

889
00:42:48,810 --> 00:42:46,210
not that this will be enough to deter

890
00:42:51,660 --> 00:42:48,820
the dedicated conspiracy theorist from

891
00:42:54,540 --> 00:42:51,670
concluding that it is all a government

892
00:42:58,140 --> 00:42:54,550
plot but now we find some of the less

893
00:43:00,330 --> 00:42:58,150
offensive or serial ologists as they

894
00:43:03,270 --> 00:43:00,340
describe themselves returning to the

895
00:43:05,690 --> 00:43:03,280
mundane not at all elaborate circles in

896
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:05,700
crops and postulating that they could be

897
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:08,530
caused by wool winds to which the

898
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:10,240
scientific community will no doubt

899
00:43:17,580 --> 00:43:14,010
respond with a very low volume Wow

900
00:43:19,890 --> 00:43:17,590
has anything useful emerged from the

901
00:43:21,720 --> 00:43:19,900
crop circle phenomenon possibly a

902
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:21,730
marginal advance in the science of

903
00:43:26,060 --> 00:43:24,370
meteorology and certainly a lot of new

904
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:26,070
data for those who study the

905
00:43:33,210 --> 00:43:29,770
idiosyncratic ways of the species Homo

906
00:43:36,210 --> 00:43:33,220
sapiens sapiens but very few insights

907
00:43:40,260 --> 00:43:36,220
into the methods and motivations of Gaia

908
00:43:43,020 --> 00:43:40,270
ghosties or Ghoulies at all and that is

909
00:43:46,020 --> 00:43:43,030
the problem the serious UFO investigator

910
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:46,030
faces if we strip away the fantasy there

911
00:43:51,390 --> 00:43:48,730
just might be some new knowledge to be

912
00:43:53,210 --> 00:43:51,400
gained about natural phenomena there

913
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:53,220
might even be evidence that

914
00:43:57,630 --> 00:43:54,970
extraterrestrials are visiting our

915
00:43:59,460 --> 00:43:57,640
planet although one would be advised not

916
00:44:01,860 --> 00:43:59,470
to bet the mortgage on it but while the

917
00:44:04,620 --> 00:44:01,870
preponderance of UFO believers continue

918
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:04,630
to offer the most ridiculous hypotheses

919
00:44:07,770 --> 00:44:05,410
about what is

920
00:44:10,650 --> 00:44:07,780
going on the serious researcher will

921
00:44:12,510 --> 00:44:10,660
continue to fight an uphill battle the

922
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:12,520
reason why very few people will take

923
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:15,370
this research seriously is not because

924
00:44:21,420 --> 00:44:18,610
skeptics raise doubts but because his

925
00:44:24,180 --> 00:44:21,430
less rational allies have so muddied the

926
00:44:33,060 --> 00:44:24,190
water that no one wants to drink from

927
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:33,070
the fountain and that was an innocent

928
00:44:39,630 --> 00:44:35,250
among the UFO notes by Barry Williams

929
00:44:42,210 --> 00:44:39,640
written way back in 1994 and it's I

930
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:42,220
think it's pretty fair to say that UFOs

931
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:45,910
have well they've really slipped down

932
00:44:50,940 --> 00:44:48,250
the list of priorities faced by skeptics

933
00:44:53,970 --> 00:44:50,950
in the modern world I wonder where they

934
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:53,980
went one of the reasons I think is

935
00:44:57,930 --> 00:44:55,810
because so many people now carry with

936
00:45:01,110 --> 00:44:57,940
them high-definition video cameras I

937
00:45:06,130 --> 00:45:01,120
have three I think and if you have a

938
00:45:10,310 --> 00:45:08,390
but one of the reasons I became

939
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:10,320
interested in skepticism in the first

940
00:45:15,020 --> 00:45:13,050
place was the UFO craze of the 1970s

941
00:45:17,210 --> 00:45:15,030
well should I say one of the reasons I

942
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:17,220
got interested in UFOs was the UFO craze

943
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:20,210
and eventually that led to skepticism

944
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:24,710
and I think there is a certain amount of

945
00:45:29,810 --> 00:45:26,850
nostalgia now to look back to those days

946
00:45:37,460 --> 00:45:29,820
when lots of people were expecting

947
00:45:39,470 --> 00:45:37,470
aliens to visit us at any time but that

948
00:45:42,980 --> 00:45:39,480
report is free for you to view for

949
00:45:45,470 --> 00:45:42,990
yourself by visiting WWF disco me today

950
00:45:47,660 --> 00:45:45,480
you as well as thousands of other

951
00:45:49,970 --> 00:45:47,670
reports interviews articles in the pages

952
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:49,980
of the skeptic and you can subscribe to

953
00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:52,560
the skeptic right now at skeptics

954
00:45:59,120 --> 00:45:55,110
comdata you and that can be delivered to

955
00:46:02,180 --> 00:45:59,130
your email address as a PDF four times a

956
00:46:04,610 --> 00:46:02,190
year or indeed it can be delivered to

957
00:46:06,930 --> 00:46:04,620
your house and you can read it in the

958
00:46:11,210 --> 00:46:06,940
bath as the printed edition

959
00:46:19,130 --> 00:46:12,170
Wow

960
00:46:21,990 --> 00:46:19,140
[Music]

961
00:46:25,140 --> 00:46:22,000
the skeptic magazine the journal from

962
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:25,150
Australian skeptics subscribe online to

963
00:46:32,190 --> 00:46:27,370
the world's second oldest skeptical

964
00:46:35,250 --> 00:46:32,200
magazine visit wwf/e XCOM a you and

965
00:46:38,850 --> 00:46:35,260
click the publication's link you can

966
00:46:42,180 --> 00:46:38,860
also find there over 30 years on back

967
00:46:47,970 --> 00:46:42,190
issues free to download the skeptic

968
00:46:47,980 --> 00:47:00,550
[Music]

969
00:47:04,490 --> 00:47:02,840
thank you for listening to the skeptic

970
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:04,500
zone now folks if you check out this

971
00:47:08,780 --> 00:47:07,050
week's show notes I'm going to link to a

972
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:08,790
radio interview done recently in

973
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:11,130
Canberra with Trish Hann who is one of

974
00:47:14,180 --> 00:47:12,480
the reporters here in the skeptic zone

975
00:47:16,370 --> 00:47:14,190
and the vice president of Australian

976
00:47:18,170 --> 00:47:16,380
skeptics in New South Wales recently

977
00:47:20,350 --> 00:47:18,180
Trish was in Canberra to speak to the

978
00:47:21,710 --> 00:47:20,360
local skeptics there about woman's

979
00:47:24,290 --> 00:47:21,720
whoo-whoo

980
00:47:28,130 --> 00:47:24,300
aimed at women general whoo or

981
00:47:31,270 --> 00:47:28,140
specifically who aimed at women and she

982
00:47:33,980 --> 00:47:31,280
was on Canberra radio and an interesting

983
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:33,990
interview with Trish have a look at the

984
00:47:38,810 --> 00:47:36,690
show notes for that link now I'm looking

985
00:47:39,650 --> 00:47:38,820
forward to meeting skeptics own fans at

986
00:47:41,930 --> 00:47:39,660
DragonCon

987
00:47:43,940 --> 00:47:41,940
in Atlanta Georgia if you come to the

988
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:43,950
skeptic please come and say hello I'm

989
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:46,530
doing a few panels and sessions there

990
00:47:51,050 --> 00:47:49,110
but I'll be generally around The

991
00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:51,060
Skeptical track I think chatting to my

992
00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:53,250
friend Derek Cohen do know dr. Angie

993
00:47:58,460 --> 00:47:55,800
Mackay and the skeptics yard to the

994
00:47:59,750 --> 00:47:58,470
universe just a name drop a few thank

995
00:48:01,910 --> 00:47:59,760
you to those people who continue to

996
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:01,920
support the skeptic zone via patreon or

997
00:48:08,450 --> 00:48:04,890
PayPal your contribution means that the

998
00:48:10,609 --> 00:48:08,460
show remains online but for this week

999
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:10,619
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1000
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:17,850
from Berkeley California you've been

1001
00:48:26,810 --> 00:48:19,890
listening to the skeptic zone podcast

1002
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:26,820
please visit our website at wwlp.com tax

1003
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:29,280
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1004
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:33,330
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1005
00:48:38,090 --> 00:48:35,040
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1006
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:38,100
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1007
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1008
00:48:43,940 --> 00:48:41,270
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1009
00:48:47,330 --> 00:48:43,950
you can also support the skeptic zone

1010
00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:47,340
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1011
00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:50,730
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1012
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:52,440
views and opinions expressed on the

1013
00:48:56,900 --> 00:48:54,570
skeptic zone are not necessarily those

1014
00:48:58,750 --> 00:48:56,910
of Australian skeptics or any other